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John Whitmer's avatar

Drutman, Hill, and Horn have considerable knowledge, long experience, and solid reputations - all well beyond my level in such matters. One doesn't need those qualities, however, to recognize arguments as thoughtful, non-ideological, well-argued, and respectful as this one clearly is. Would that more arguments in our national political arena be more so.

Thanks to these three. And thanks to DemocracySOS for providing the platform.

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Walter Horn's avatar

I very much enjoyed these three Hill/Drutman papers, so thanks.

I've been trying figure out how both authors can agree on so many things and nevertheless disagree on relative merits of RCV-Fusion, and I think I see what's going on here. It's a matter, not so much of what has worked or is clearly likely to work in the future to get the U.S. any closer to the goal both men share regarding the supreme importance of a move to PR. Rather, I think the differences here seem to me to largely stem from the extremely high value Drutman puts on the development of additional parties. As one can tell from his book--as well as from this dialogue--Drutman makes the coordination and other benefits provided by parties absolutely essential to any effective modern democracy, and he believes (with good reason, in my view) that the two-party system has run its course in the U.S. . Hill, may or may not agree with him on the party-related matters. For him, the most pressing short-term goal (i.e., prior to achieving PR--the supreme importance of which, both scholars agree on) seems rather to be elimination of the spoiler effect in winner-take-all elections.

RCV may or may not strengthen third parties: if it does, both scholars might agree that is a nice side benefit. Similarly, Fusion may or may not have benefits on the spoiler front; and again, both scholars may well agree that is a good thing for it to be doing. But as their principal short-terms goals differ, there are bound to be disagreements about what should be focused on--even if we were to agree on what is really working.

In my book, I try to package Approval and a novel version of SNTV to get PR (which I agree is extremely important), but, like many Approval and RCV devotees, I can also probably be accused of failing to give sufficient attention to the importance of parties, particularly with respect to their unique coordination capacities.

So....is anybody here "right"? Well, if we're looking for "a winner" of these sorts of debates, I think the answer will depend on how we prioritizes our values and goals--both short- and long-term. But, in a word, Yeah, every reformer in the general area is right and should keep on keeping on!

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